Sunday, July 17, 2005

Some notes on the Remington pump .223

Just a couple of notes on the Remington 7615 pump .223. I'm a big fan of the rifle because I think police need the additional firepower afforded by a carbine, and the 7615's design similarity to a Remington 870, the uber-police shotgun for the last, like, three centuries, gives that gun a huge advantage in today's training environment.

In an ideal world, I would heartily suggest Thompsons in 10mm backed with 12 gauge 870s for most cops. It's hard for me to imagine an urban situation (short of War of the Worlds) that couldn't be resolved with that combo.


Publicola said...

It's hard for me to imagine an urban situation where the cops should have arms that the citizens of that city cannot own &/or carry.

But aside from the whole "it's okay for the cops but not for the peaants to have adequate means of defense" thing, I'm thinking something much simpler - say a STEN in 10mm - would be a better (& more economical; well if we could negate the government distoriton in the market caused by the NFA) alternative to the Thompson.

& the Rem pump in .223? I'd like to see them make one in 7.62x39 or a hot pistol cartridge (like the 10mm or .454 Casul). But still, I see nothing wrong with a 20 guage set up to shoot slugs. At urban ranges (100 yards tops, more usually 75 or less) it's accurate enough & has better terminal ballistics than most anything else beign discussed here.

Anonymous said...

to pggy back on my previous comment on the price of the 7615- right now on gun broker the 7615 is at least 689, while the standard 7600's new in dull finish and plastic stock are running 389- can't see 300 bucks difference in price due to ghost rings and mag well! ahundred and a half perhaps- if these guns run $550-600 they will sell if they stay comprable to a basic AR15, they market will definitely be a very small niche!

Anonymous said...

Just a thought, from a 29 year serving LE officer. Don’t worry about the LE only political correct idea that the cops should have what we don’t, if limited to a second tier weapon, I’d take a Remington pump gun in .243, .308, 30-06 or anything else, but not a .223. The idea of “Halt or I will scratch your paint” comes to mind. As I recently told the firearms instructor, when I asked if I could use my 06 Garand during rifle quals. You don’t have to double tap a 06, even cooper would call that a “HAMMER!”

Personally I would take all the “I want to be Delta” guns away until they can actually shoot. There is way to much “CDI” factor (chicks dig it) in weapon’s selection. Remember, the M-16 was Gen Curtis Lemay “of the nuclear bomber fame” selection to replace the M-1 CARBINE and pistols until the CDI factor kicked in and we replaced the M-14 RIFLE with a sub-caliber carbine.

Guess where all the serviceable M-14s are currently assigned?
Can you spell A-F-G-I-N-S-T-A-N!

As Col. Cooper used to call the M-94 30-30 Winchester the New York Special. I would submit that a well-pointed M-94 with 9 rounds of .44mag would be very interesting… 45-70 ballistics in a 16” barrel. No CDI factor but with an aperture sight, accurate and fast and hits HARD.

Anonymous said...

While I agree with the above poster's opinion that LE would be well served with a lever-action rifle, I must disgree with him/her in that I love the concept of the 7615. I think it would be a great rifle for a patrolman, and I would also like to point out that there is a .308 version.

I do wish that Big Green would have given it a more reasonable price as anything over $600 (and that is an extreme upper limit) does bring into question the cost effectiveness of such a purchase. This carbine as a political upside to it, but once you start getting close to AR prices why would anybody go with it over an AR?

Anonymous said...

as a long-time patrol member in the danish armed forces, i would say the 7615 is to big to run around with!
certainly with a .223, very large gun, with the abillity to scratch only..

AR is better for patrol - less thinking and faster reloading..

Anonymous said...

I remember the timberwolf rifle, I was too broke to get one at the time. I would like to see the 7615 in the 6.8 spc round. It gives good power and still uses the M15 mags. I also like the fact that there are plenty of accessories in the market for it. I also find it hard to believe that the price is so high. If someone would come out with a rifled barrel build off of the Mossberg 500 .410 for 45 LC I would buy it, even though I not particularly enamored of that round I like the .357. If Taurus makes their pump carbine in .357 with a shorter barrel I will have one. It's just a shame that no gun maker in the US wants this considerable business.

Anonymous said...

While the .223 is not the .308 it has it's place in police patrol. As far as the "stop or I'll scratch your paint" remark, police (at least where I am) carry slugs for their shotguns along with 00 buckshot (9 pellet). The slugs will do more than scratch paint by far. The idea is to have an option that will deal with soft targets and be stopped by many hard ones. You want a .308, then get a 7600 and be happy. Magazine capacity is considerably lower though.

I know that is chafes a bit to have to deal with it at times, but public opinion is very important to police agencies. The 7615 has the look of a smaller version of an 870 shotgun, and less likely to offend the public. It will still do the job that it is meant for though.

I'll be getting a 7615P for my personal use in the near future. I don't see it catching on, but it is a good idea with a purpose.

Anonymous said...

As a firearms instructor for a police department the 7615P is a great weapon. We have the M-4's for the SWAT team. The transition is easy to teach for the basic patrolman. The mags are interchangable with the M-4's, the 7615 fits in the same gun racks as the 870 and it's easier for the "smaller framed" officers to shoot than the big ole 12gauge. Everybody knows that the M-4/16's love oil. Police have the same problem as most gun owners... they don't clean their weapons as often as they should. M-4/16's that aren't clean aren't going to function. The 7615 was put thru the ringer and functioned every time. The 7615 is more practical for us anyway.

Anonymous said...

The Baton Rouge PD is having mega problems with their 7615's. They seem to hate mags other than the 10round Remington. The word is about 1/3 won't feed from aftermarket mags. Don't buy!

Anonymous said...

The 7615 could be loaded with sub sonic loads that would be quiter in settled rural areas...ones that wouldnt cycle the ar15. It would handle 90% of all rifle needs for a rancher type person. But if they can sell a remington 870 for less than 300 new the rifle version shouldnt cost more than 400-450. I would also like to see the 6.8 or even a necked down 6.8-6mm.

Anonymous said...

"Can you spell A-F-G-I-N-S-T-A-N!"

lol, yeah, Afghanistan. How's that?

7615's might be a niche market in the States, where they have to compete with AR's, but here in Oz with our strict gun laws they're becoming very popular with us civilians. The 1 in 9 twist will stabilize a fairly heavy bullet, up to about 69gr I reckon. Projectiles in that weight range have high SD, so provided you find one with decent construction you'll do a lot more than "scratch paint."

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Rem870 said...

Remington 870 is one of the best tools of the police officers. But many of them prefer AR-15 nowadays.