Wednesday, July 27, 2011

More Norway Thoughts

Marshal Halloway produced this timeline of events in Norway:

All times PM
3:26: The bomb went off in downtown Oslo
5.27: First 911 call about the shooting on Utoya
5.30: Second 911 call about the shooting on Utoya
5.38: Oslo Politi District receives a request for assistance/backup from Buskerud Police Distrikt.
5.52: First police unit arrives to closest point on the mainland and are waiting for what is called a suitable boat.
6.03: The police are notified that a boat is under way.
6.09: A SWAT team from Oslo arrived to closest point on the mainland.
6.25: The SWAT team lands on the island.
6.27: Coward Breivik is apprehended without resistance.
The coward had over an hour to operate. Extended Gun Free Zone, what a paradise the so called modern western civilization is for a predator.

There are already questions being raised in Europe whether the Norway shooter could have killed as many people if he didn't have a semiauto rifle (a Ruger Mini-14). Based on this timeline, he could have accomplished the same number of deaths with anything, including a hammer or a machete.

And yet we have the apparently endless meme of, "well, they couldn't have done anything anyway and would have probably made things worse." Here's one of the many rehasings of the meme, this one from E. D. Kain at Forbes:
First of all, it is very unlikely in a situation like this that a vigilante will stop a shooter. In fact, it’s quite likely that more people shooting guns in such a scenario would lead to more confusion and possibly more deaths, some of which might be accidental. Police also have a harder time identifying who the shooter is and who the vigilantes are. Besides this, the killer is much more likely to kill the surprised gun owner since they are already prepared.
Let's get past his misuse of the word "vigilante" [vigilantes are civilians who punish after the fact; there is a huge difference between a vigilante and a civilian who chooses to protect him- or herself. Vigilante, of course, has a negative connotation, which is why he used the word here]. The rest of his comments are breathtaking nonsense. "Lead to more confusion?" Damn, I pretty much think a crazed killer running loose pegs the old "confusion" meter.

Secondly, let's look at an armed society at war — Israel — where armed civilians have routinely stopped terrorist attacks on civilians. Seems the Israeli police have no trouble figuring out the good guys from the bad guys...the bad guy is one lying dead on the ground with the good guys pointing guns at him.

There is also the mindset of the armed civilian. When armed civilians choose to carry guns, it is in acknowledgement that such events as Norway are possible. One of the main thrusts of training is to minimize the duration of the "startle" response and allow us to quickly respond. People like Mr. Kain, who apparently gains all his insights on firearms from Hollywood, has a vision of armed civilians trying to "quick draw" an armed terrorist, which is pretty much a guaranteed lose. This is based on their premise that anyone who wants to take responsibility for his or her own safety must be some kind of moron, so of course they're going to stand out in the open and try to Hollywood out-draw the bad guys!

I think that one of the things driving this meme some element of projection. Folks such as Mr. Kain imagines himself in that situation — frozen in place with urine running down his leg, begging some madman not to kill him — and imagines that everyone caught in that situation must respond the same way. Hmmmm...doesn't seem to happen that way in Israel. Maybe it's something in the water there.

But it doesn't even happen that way in the United States. Go back to the 2005 Tyler, TX, shootings, where a madman in body armor with an AK-47 decided to teach his ex-wife and anyone else he could find a permanent lesson. He killed his ex-wife and a bystander who tried to intervene and was looking for his next victim, their son. But instead he ran into an armed civilian, Mark Alan Wilson, a competition shooter and CCW carrier, who instead of freezing in place, begging for mercy and peeing down his leg, grabbed his handgun and engaged the shooter. Wilson scored repeated hits, but the bullets were all stopped by the flak jacket. Mark Alan Wilson died for his efforts, but police credited him with saving the life of the son and giving police time to arrive.

Mark Alan Wilson was a shooter. I believe that knew exactly what he was facing; he knew he was outgunned and I believe he knew the likely outcome. But he engaged anyway. That must seem like sheer insanity in E.D. Kain's world, where people wallow in their helplessness and wait to die, as if the bullet or knife or bludgeon were preordained by some malevolent god.

You might also note, Mr. Kain, that there are some things worse then death. Ask Colin Goddard, who's now "Living for 32" and "making a difference," because on the one day of his life when he could have made a difference, he didn't...all the speakers' fees and Oprah appearances in the world will never change that fact. I would not want to be Colin Goddard when he turns off the lights at night.

Finally, let's say that there was an armed civilian on that island, and in the ensuing melee 2 or 3 innocents were "accidentally" killed before the crazy man died or threw down his gun out of cowardice. Even in your sad sad world, Mr. Kain, would not 2 or 3 killed be better than 68 killed?

Just some thoughts...

17 comments:

Darrell said...

When that asshat shot up the church north of Colorado Springs, once Jeanne Assam started shooting back the perp killed himself. It was said at the time that that's often the case, once a shooter is confronted, they do themselves in rather than be taken alive.

justbill said...

With apologies to Ellen Ripley,

"Did I.Q.s drop at Forbes magazine while I was away?"

Anonymous said...

If this had happened in Finland, I wonder how many puukkos would have been found embedded in the scumbag's body?
JD

Anonymous said...

Check out the "prison" this guy is going to live his life out in. I've stayed in crappier motels. I suspect that Norway is getting what it deserves. Sad as that is.

You have to click on the photos from Yahoo news today...
http://tinyurl.com/3v5pjku

Dave Sohm said...

I'd be willing to bet that the last thought going through the mind of anything of the victims was not, "Boy, I'm sure glad that I don't have a gun. . . . . ."

Windy Wilson said...

The heros of Telemark would be disgusted by their country today.

Rob Drummond said...

I always get sick when I see stories like this. Not only for the senseless death but of the senseless reporting.

I live in NH where crime is very low, some say it's because the population is under 2 million and there are only a few big cities. But those of us who live in the country know why it's because the armed citizen is alive, well, & prepared & I count myself among those.

We have a few shootings up here but very few break in's or armed assaults. The criminals just don't know who has a gun here. Some towns up here have part time police & the response time is sometimes 1/2 hour or better especially out in rural areas. If somethings happens it will be all over before the cops show up so it is up to the civilian to deal with it. So many households are armed just for that reason.

Can you imagine if only one person had a gun on that island what might have happened?
Rob Drummond
Hillsboro, NH

Anonymous said...

I live in the next county over from the previous poster and echo his comments.
Here in Laconia over the past couple years we have started to see "Home invasion" robberies, every single one of them has been drug related.
Recently we have had a string of night time burglaries, in each case the items taken were visible from a window.
The thieves are going for quick in, quick out, no confrontation, because they want to steal, not get shot.
Tom B.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations to liberal-socialist-lefty education initiatives. It only took 50 years to produce a generation of pacifists who allowed themselves to be slaughtered without throwing a single rock. Good job, guys. The message is: put a liberal in charge of eductaion and in 50 years you get a population of sheep to which you can do anything you wish.. (I keep laughing to myself about the possibility that instead of this island, the psycho nutcase had chosen the island on which the English schoolboys were marooned in LORD OF THE FLIES. They would have laughingly cut his head off, boiled it for soup and hung the skull on a pole in front of the worship tent. Such, such were the joys!

luoyu212 said...

The particular Cheap Oakley Sunglasses symbolize any basic principle jihuy7y regarding that is which inside layout. Consumers can easily view simply by trend series or perhaps see a web site guide to identify a certain shape. Possibly they've got noticed a wonderful couple of Oakley Frogskins in the newspaper and also wish to very own moobs by themselves. Simply simply by showing their particular tips in regards to the layout regarding Oakley Frogskin to be able to professionals inside Spectacles go shopping, consumers can very own Oakley Radar in which fit by themselves simply. Any time these kinds of superstars promote a certain brand name or perhaps type, the particular supporters and also followers immediately starts off dropping for anyone goods. Oakley Radar Sunglasses will be the many well-known and also elegant use to have.

MulberryNews said...

Nonetheless, a bghviyr single will not need to wear any even to adopt pleasure inside the ageless hair styling and also large eye-sight defense furnished by these kinds of Oakley Frogskins. These kinds of Oakley Frogskin have been completely near due to the fact 1936. They Cheap Oakley Sunglasses will received their particular brand name simply because they will swiftly began to be popular while using the pilots regarding which they are Oakley Jawbone developed. from the fifties, these kinds of Oakley Jawbones knowledgeable begun to turn into popular together with almost everyone. In which popularity provides scarcely wavered inside every one of the a long time due to the fact next.

Jkwas said...

The real lesson from the Forbes blogger is that people who know nothing about guns completely mis understand people that do.
Both types of people, gun-culture and nongun-culture operate on two different planes of existence.
I don't know sometimes that getting those two planes to intersect is possible without a life altering experience. Even that may not work.

Half X said...

What is actually brvivqt worse, the Oakley Sunglasses Cheap existing condition are generally Half X Oakley horribly toxified and pollutes Oakley Sunglasses Discount is available everywhere, especially in air flow. Above most, expose ones' sight to out-of-doors and Sale Oakley Sunglasses toxified air will bring about very critical eye troubles. However, if men and women can don Oakley Jawbone after they go out-of-doors, such risks might be eliminated as well as greatly reduced at the Oakley Stpl Jawbone least. Of study course, Half X can even be for in house use. For the reason that they are certainly not only Oakley Sunglasses Outlet, but in addition protective Oakley sunglasses.

oakley oil rig sunglasses said...

You would greater not necessarily help make the 2 casings and also huygy7n associates Cheap Oakley Sunglasses. if you need Oakley Frogskins or perhaps attractive sun shades, a selection of Oakley Frogskin can assist you talk the persona. And the ones nowadays who just like if you are excellent amongst their particular colleagues might also test about these kinds of sun shades, while they are the satisfied ambiance. Yet Oakley Radar are usually noticeable as an alternative huge inside genuine optical retailers. You can aquire low-cost Oakley Radar Sunglasses for your buddies and also household folks at the same time.

Will said...

Michael,
it seems that a surprising number of those that ccw would not get involved in stopping an active mass shooter, if it was possible to exit the scene without engaging him. Perhaps you could look into this? A friend with extensive Gunsite and FrontSight training sounds like a typical anti-gun, big govt liberal/journalist when the subject is brought up. The attitude in general appears to be: "If I can safely beat feet, the devil take the hindmost".

roger vivier said...

Soldes sur les chaussures couture. Envie d'une paire de chaussures haute des splendides modèles Roger Vivier crees pour Christian Dior Haute Couture Roger Vivier .Christian Louboutin a rejoint la filiale legendaire Dior "Roger Vivier de fournir? un professionnel pour faire des chaussures vivier shoes . If you can't get the preotwuq back of those Roger Vivier at least on the premise that wearing roger vivier chaussures resulted in less roger vivier heels .La paire de sandales ? show off ? de la collection de chaussures Roger Vivier printemps ete 2011. Munie dun talon aiguille vxzcvbaa ,elle resplendit.On peut, par exemple, trouver des soldes chaussures sur des Converse chez ASOS roger vivier chaussures , des Puma chez Yoox ou Roger Vivier chez MyTheresa. Roger vivier helps you cathch the fashion styla and athletes from around the same high school,wholesale roger vivier chaussures shoes. Art de chaussure. Roger Vivier, bottier styliste, a habille les pieds les plus celebres, de Brigitte bardot a la reine angleterre.

roger vivier said...

Amongst shots for Blake Vivid throughout the on roll movie dojo for Chat Girlfriend roger vivier flats, your sweetheart applied the Dean roger vivier flats .After a few seconds, criminals has been controlled, Buy cheap Roger Vivier flats and take away from the vehicle vxzcvbaa . Explosive-handling robot roger vivier pumps .Tagged With: airport style ? balenciaga bag ? freida pinto Priyanka Chopra roger vivier flats Shilpa shetty tod's roger vivier sale .The new look I want you to notice is roger vivier flats ! We have switched themes and are in love with the Genesis framework!