Thursday, April 04, 2013

More on the Colorado Magazine Ban

This is a MUST READ article for Colorado residents! Please, read the whole thing. From my friend Jim Rawles' Survival Blog:
PROBLEMS WITH THIS LAW 
To conclude, here are some of the areas where I could see the police and district attorneys using this statute to abuse gun owners: 
Police: 
1. If you are open carrying a semi-automatic handgun, this law will provide the police probable cause to stop and detain you while they determine if you are violating this statute (which the police could not do legally before this law); 
2. This law will provide the police the ability to disarm you while they determine the capacity of your magazine (which was not legal before this law) 
3. If you inform the police that you are conceal carrying a handgun, you can be stopped and detained to determine the capacity of the magazine (which before this law was not a valid reason to detain you); 
4. If your magazine carries more than 15 rounds of ammunition, you could be arrested or cited for a violation of this law and your firearm and magazine taken as evidence while you prove your innocence. Remember, in order to fully assert your exemptions, you must go to trial. This will take time and you will be without your handgun and magazine until after the trial. 
5. Should you now claim your Fifth Amendment right if asked by a police officer whether you are carrying a firearm? Perhaps if your magazine holds more than 15 rounds of ammunition. If you do so, what will be the police officer’s response? Arrest you? Let you go? 
6. As stated above, who possesses a magazine when it is found in a person’s home or car? And, for the exception, who owns and maintains continuous possession of a large capacity magazine when it is located in an area where multiple people are? 
Prosecutors 
1. After receiving the firearm and magazine as evidence, the district attorney could use the threat of a trial on defendants to make them accept a plea deal that will include the loss of your firearm and magazine forever. 
2. What will they do when you die owning a large capacity magazine? Would they charge the executor of your will if a transfer per your will takes place after you die? What actually is that executor to do with the magazine at that point? Turn it in to the police? Given that, it will not be that long before all of the current owners of large capacity magazines pass away and their magazines destroyed after being turned in the police. Call it self- directed gun confiscation. 
3. Going on a “fishing expedition” trying to refute my exception assertions. This can be accomplished by requesting any and all documents, people, etc that could be used to refute my exception assertions. 
4. Tying up the defendant in a long, expensive trial while at the same time not allowing the defendant to have possession of their handgun(s) while the trial is ongoing. 
5. With the way that this law is written, if you plan on asserting the exceptions you will be waiving your 5th Amendment rights to self incrimination. By that I mean you will have to testify to assert the exemptions. This will give the prosecutor the ability to cross examine you as they attempt to refute your assertions.

19 comments:

Anonymous said...

All valid points - and James Wesley, Rawles is an excellent source to "brainstorm" with.

Michael, all I can say is - until July 1st we're good. After that, we'd best mind our Ps and Qs, beware of our surroundings and how change while we drive through the state (following the steps you laid out a couple weeks back in the podcast - OPSEC).

And, if we can't turn things around come 2014 - I, for one, will be saying so long to my home of the past 33 years.

(BTW, Hickenlooper made a Fruedian slip today on Mike Rosen - something about "registration" rather than mere background checks. You REALLY need to catch his podcast).

Gunny

Anonymous said...

All valid points - and James Wesley, Rawles is an excellent source to "brainstorm" with.

Michael, all I can say is - until July 1st we're good. After that, we'd best mind our Ps and Qs, beware of our surroundings and how they change as we drive through the state (following the steps you laid out a couple weeks back in the podcast - OPSEC).

And, if we can't turn things around come 2014 - I, for one, will be saying so long to my home of the past 33 years.

(BTW, Hickenlooper made a Fruedian slip today on Mike Rosen - something about "registration" rather than mere background checks. You REALLY need to catch his podcast).

Gunny

Steve B. said...

As for me, I plan on staying the hell out of Colorado. It's a shame, we really enjoyed vacationing there. My son even had a Colorado state flag on the wall in his room.

I have written the Colorado Visitors Board (or whatever it's called) to let them know how much the campground, restaurants, shops, gas stations, etc will not be getting this year from us - not to mention the tax revenue that Colorado will not get. I also explained that, while we are just one family, we are not the only one that will find another place to vacation this year and maybe from now on.

BTW, my son has taken the flag off his wall (he's old enough to understand what's happening there).

Fiftycal said...

Wow. You just guaranteed that I will NEVER set foot in Colorado until this law is repealed. NO F'ing way. I used to drive my RV up to Telluride. Guess I'll avoid Co. and go to Utah this year.

Anonymous said...

What's all the concern here? What's to worry about? Can't we trust our elected officials to watch out for OUR best interests? Don't they listen to us? Are they not the experts? Haven't they fixed the economy as an example?

After all, our President Obama spoke with a back-drop of police officers in Colorado the day before yesterday and said something to the effect that people say that they need guns to protect themselves from the government. That was followed by a long silence and his thoughtful glances. Then he said "We ARE the government". Don't you all feel better now? At that point, one of the uniformed officers behind and to the Presidents right began to clap, but most others didn't. Couldn't they see that there's nothing to worry about here?

Life Member

P. S.: By the way, we all need to keep reminding everyone that as our government uses the "gun registry" approach to solving violent crime, our Canadian neighbor to the north is dismantling theirs. It cost over 2 billion dollars-Canadian, isn't even finished and DID NOT ACCOMPLISH ONE SINGLE THING OTHER THAN CREATING A MONEY-HOLE. And, as we all know, it only focused on the law-abiding citizens.

Anonymous said...

By The way, here are some interesting links regarding the Canadian Gun Registry:

www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/index-eng.htm

www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/cfp-pcaf/online_en-ligne/reg_enr-eng.

www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2012/12/01/pol-the-house-j...

Life Member

Anonymous said...

More on Canada's FAILED Gun Registration Program:

Just do a search using "Canada gun registration". You will find more info' there, including official Canadian Government links. The links I posted above are only the tip-of-the-iceberg.

Life Member

Elm Creek Smith said...

We have loved Colorado since I was stationed at Fort Carson in the mid-'80's, but we won't be going back on vacation or hunting trips until these blatantly unconstitutional, unquestionably useless, and economically calamitous laws are repealed or found unconstitutional.

In truth, the laws wouldn't affect me much since my carry guns are revolvers. However, one of these days a disarmanut in a legislature is going to watch the video of Jerry Miculek firing 8 rounds on target from a Smith & Wesson 627 in less than a second, 8 rounds on four targets (2 each) in 1.03 seconds, and 12 rounds (with a reload) from a Smith & Wesson 625 in 2.99 seconds. THEN, they'll go after revolvers.

ECS

Alan said...

"1. If you are open carrying a semi-automatic handgun, this law will provide the police probable cause to stop and detain you while they determine if you are violating this statute (which the police could not do legally before this law);"

I hesitate to argue with a lawyer but this kind of thing has been pretty well adjudicated in California and other states WRT open carry. Merely carrying is not probable cause absent some RAS that a crime is being committed. Can't pull you over just to see if you have a driver license.

None of this is to say it won't happen, look at the history of open carry here in California, but it is ripe territory for civil rights lawsuits if it comes to it.

"gunner" said...

see chris muir's "day by day" cartoon strip at the bottom of the page, and follow it back a few days. "homeland security" in action, and a glimpse of the future.

clark myers said...

Before I flee from Colorado - while I can still load all my magazines in the bed - are there any points of interest - hat sellers or shirt sellers or holster makers or most importantly not to be missed restaurants?
Especially any in Nederland you especially suggest as worth the drive? Black Forest struck me as authentic but at the boarding house level.

Bubblehead Les. said...

Well, Rawles makes some good points, but let's take a look at the hand you guys are dealt with. So you can't use Magazines of greater than 10 rounds in your Glocks? Okay then, then just downsize to a Single Stack 380,9,40 or 45. Lot's of good one's out there. Also there's J-Frames and K-Frames And N-Frames (for you guys who have those Grizzlys in your Back Yard). Then ship off your "Illegal Magazines of Mass Destruction" to a Free State until you can get those Idiots out of your State House.

You see, some of us are old enough to have LIVED with this Crap before, and we found ways to Arm Ourselves well enough keep our families safe.

And some of us REAL OLD FARTS can recall when all we had were Service Revolvers and 1911's to use. Very few High Powers out there, and Glocks and the rest of the "Wonder Nines" (remember THAT Phrase, Michael?) hadn't even come into existence.

So like the T-Shirt says "Keep Calm and Carry a J-Frame." This Insanity will soon pass.

RVN11B said...

I remember very well, the carrying of 'service revolvers' and '1911s'. Especially since I did both!

Naturally I preferred then as I do now, the 1911!

DamDoc said...

Great buttress to what you have been saying.. if folks here havent read Rawle novels, you are really missing great , and terrifying reads, his novels are also great prepper training...

Elm Creek Smith said...

Well, I'm still carrying "service revolvers." The guys with whom I work all carry Glock 22 .40 cal pistols with 15 round magazines. Me? I carry a Smith & Wesson Model 686 .357 Magnum with a S&W Model 37 .38 in my off-side pocket. And one of these days, one of them is going to shoot as well as I do. It's tough to improve on 100%. :D

ECS

Anonymous said...

I wondered how long it was going to take for "The Great Divide" to settle-in here. Here we are, rationalizing why "It ain't so bad, I don't have any of 'those guns'. It doesn't affect me."

Let's all play right into the anti's hands.

Life Member

Anonymous said...

I'm not from Colorado, but from Texas. Are these magazine laws felonies? That could then cause you your right to have any firearm if they are. As I see it, the revolver owners should be too smug. This is just a crack in the door for complete confiscation. Wait till it blows over? People get complacent, lazy, and use to the "status quo". It doesn't get better, just worse. And to think, you have a lot of the Hollywood liberals in those fancy ski resort towns. They could care less about the lost gun and gun part manufacturing businesses and guiding services in Colorado. They're vegans and "fur free". Oh yeah, fish have feelings, too. Good luck and organize. The National Rifle Association can't fight all your battles. You need to pick, support, and vote for those political candidates that will help you. But, you already knew that.

Timothy Priebe said...

Alan posted: I hesitate to argue with a lawyer but this kind of thing has been pretty well adjudicated in California and other states WRT open carry. Merely carrying is not probable cause absent some RAS that a crime is being committed. Can't pull you over just to see if you have a driver license.

Alan, I am the author of the post on Survivalblog.com. I would agree on your comment regarding open carry is not probable cause to be stopped ON IT OWN. However, the way that this law is written, a police officer could have probable cause of a misdemeanor is being committed in his/her presence if you are carrying a semi auto firearm. This would give them reason for the stop or for further investigation once you were stopped for some other reason. Remember, in Colorado IF a magazine could be readily converted to accept more than 15 rounds, it is a large capacity magazine and illegal to possess unless an exception applies.

Majd Chana said...

Hello, I was very encouraged to find this site. The reason being that this is such an informative post. I wanted to thank you for this informative read of the subject.

Boulder Car Service
Boulder Car Service