Monday, August 27, 2007

S&W Revolver Lock Failure!

Heard about the internal S&W revolver lock failing for years, but ever since my friend Charlie Petty's scathing article in AMERICAN HANDGUNNER, which essentially said the safety failures were an urban myth (and which I can't for the life of me find on the Internet), I dismissed the idea from my mind.

Doom on Mikey! I went out today to shot some .44 Magnums through several guns, including my ultralight-weight 329PD overhauled by Jim Stroh at Alpha Precision. I've put a bunch of .44 Specials through the gun already, and in truth I took it along as a "control" to compare the newer guns to.

I ran 50 rounds of Winchester Cowboy .44 Special (240-grain lead @ 750 fps) through the 329 and it shot as sweet as it always has. Then I went to BlackHills 240-gr JHPs @ 1260...thumpers, but one of my favorite .44 Magnum loads. I ran through 3 cylinders-full with no problemo.

Then I went to Buffalo Bore "lower recoil" 255-gr Keith style lead bullets at 1350 fps, a load specifically designed for the 329 and one that I have used in all my other .44 Magnums with great accuracy. Here is what Buffalo Bore says about their load:
In order to alleviate the recoil, crimp jump and sticky extraction, we have developed this load. It is still full power, but uses a lighter weight, super hard cast, gas checked bullet and will still penetrate very deeply in big game despite its lighter weight. This load is ideal for those of you who carry the S&W model 329PD. This load will not lead your barrel.

This load falls well under SAAMI pressure specs and is safe to use IN ANY 44mag. While we love to hear from our customers, please do not phone/email us and ask if this load is safe in your particular 44 mag.—it is—providing your gun is in normal working condition.

Now there exists a serious full power 44 mag. load that will penetrate big bones (including a bears skull) and drive deeply into living organs and tissues, that has minimum recoil.
In other words — and I have said this repeatedly — the ideal load for a dangerous game back-up gun, which was what I got the 329 for. As I said, I like the load..it's heavy, but nothing like the Winchester or Cor-Bon hunting loads!

On the second round, the "flag" part of the locking system flew up and locked the gun up at almost a full cock.

I couldn't unlock it; I couldn't uncock it; I couldn't get it to fire. It took me 20 minutes of working v....e....e....r....r....y gingerly with a screwdriver to get the lock to release enough to allow me to bring the 329 to full cock and subsequently unlock the cylinder and empty the gun.

I'd say this was NOT GOOD for a gun billed as a dangerous game back-up gun!

Massad Ayoob touched on this in AH in Jan/Feb 2005, quoting a failure similar to mine:
In Rochester, Indiana, detective Dennis Reichard was firing his personally owned service revolver, a Model 329 Scandium with full power .44 Magnum, when the lock's flag mechanism flew out of its slot in the frame alongside the exposed hammer. While the .44 continued to fire, Reichard was less than thrilled with his duty weapon literally falling apart while he was shooting it, and has gone back to his old all-steel Model 629 without the integral lock mechanism.
Mine is going back to Jim Stroh for a lock removal and a thorough examination. ALL my centerfire S&Ws with locks will get the damned things removed, and I'll live with the hole in the frame.

In the meanwhile, I STRONGLY caution all of you about trusting your precious butts to an S&W revolver with the integral lock using HEAVY BULLETS! Especially the ultralight Scadium-framed revolvers like the 329, 325, 340, 357, etc.

To quote from an old bluesman I once knew, "I ain't tellin' you what I heard; I ain't tellin' you what I read; I'm tellin' you what is."

69 comments:

Hazcat said...

MB,

As you know I bought a 629 for my son. It was built in 2002 but I don't see any extra 'lock' on it. It has replacement rubber Houge grips are they hiding it?

Is it safe?

Hazcat

Walt said...

Uh oh - have you told Charlie ?

Tell me I don't have to de-lock my 432PD...

TIM BURKE said...

If he hasn't told Charlie, he's too late... I sent CP an e-mail with a link to the blog about an hour ago.
I don't like the idea of the locks. Since I'd never use them , they are just another place for Murphy to hide.

Hazcat said...

Charlie?

Michael Bane said...

Petty...who wrote the article in AH on how the whole lock thing was BS, because no one could provide a credible case of the lock failing and seizing the gun.

I talked to Walt Rauch from the range, and he was going to let Frank James know.

The lock would be just behind the cylinder release and very noticeable. My 629 doesn't have one. In fact, my 629 that i just got back from Alpha Precision handled the 255-grainers without problem, as well as the 240s, etc.

I wrote a little more on the DOWN RANGE forum here:

http://www.downrange.tv/forum/index.php?topic=613.msg5004;topicseen#new

I'll be talking to Jim Stroh tomorrow...he delocked my M21 .44 Special, but I didn't think it was worht the extra expense on the 329...wrong...

PS...a LOCK is not a safety system...you could conceivably be held liable if your de-locked gun was involved in a negligent discharge after being loaned or stolen, and you can NEVER sell a gun with the safety lock removed unless it it returned to its original state!

I never sell S&W N-Frames, anyway...

Michael B

Anonymous said...

Michael,

I do not know you personally, but you just gained a lot of respect from me for publishing this; you will get even more if you do not soften your position after hearing from Smith.

Anonymous said...

Michael, can you recommend a manual that precisely describes S&W disassembly and reassembly to aid us in the removal of the %#@! locks?

Tam said...

I've only seen one internal lock failure myself, on a Model 357 using heavyweight Federal LSWC's.

I don't worry about it on my little 432PD or my Thunder Ranch 21, but I'd certainly disable it on any Scandium magnum I somehow wound up owning...

Anonymous said...

Thank you Mr. Blain for your honest reporting of the facts. For more first person reporting of Internal Lock Induced Failures of Smith and Wesson handguns, please see this thread on the smithand wesson forum,

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/500103904/m/228102718/p/1

Providing first person reports of Internal Lock Induced Failures since 2005.

Anonymous said...

For years, I have pried off the flag on every Smith that comes with that damned lock. I don't sell mine either, and don't care for something so fragile (or ANY lock for that matter). Thanks for posting this, because I really felt Charlie Petty lost some credibility for writing that article.

Walt said...

Anon - you ought to cut Charlie some slack on the lock deal; he called it bunk because he had no first hand knowledge of a failure. Erronet reports and gunstore gossip doesn't fly in his world. Now that Mr. "Blain" has a real deal documented event, I expect it will get some notice. CP ain't lost any street cred in my book.

Anonymous said...

I had an early lock failure with a 60-15 when I oafishly knocked the unloaded gun off a counter onto a hardwood floor. The "gun locked" flag got stuck crossways in its slot and jammed everything up. I had to go to the safe, get the keys, fully engage the lock, and then fully disengage it in order to get the flag properly situated again. I traded the gun off (at a loss, of course) to the dealer who sold it to me and will never buy another with S&W's idiot-lock onboard.

I would encourage anyone interested in this subject to visit this thread on the S&W Forum:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/500103904/m/228102718/p/1

cheers, erich martell

Overload in Colorado said...

Michael,
is this failure similar to what GunTests just had happen with their S&W M629?

Overload in CO

Mike M. said...

The question is, can we sue the Clinton-ear officials who strong-armed S&W into selling guns with an unsafety lock?

Anonymous said...

I, too, have a 329PD that experiences lock failure. Mine engages when firing 44mag FC 180gr JHP factory ammo. Hammer rebounds about half way up, flag flies up, revolver will not function. The only way to clear it is to pull the trigger firmly while thumbing back rather hard on the hammer, which releases SOMETHING, allowing the flag to fall and the hammer to be lowered. Takes about 5-10 seconds to clear, and isn't a huge problem, except, how stupid is it to have to PULL THE TRIGGER on a loaded gun to clear a malfunction. Oh, and the little issue that it disables my personal defense sidearm with every shot fired.

I have a video clip of mine doing it that I took with my camera phone, no better than youtube quality, but if someone wants the clip I could send it.

Formerflyer
frmrflyer-at-aol-dot-com

Michael Bane said...

Overload...yep...

I think that in the final analysis the problem is the "flag" that indicates the safety is on. Apparently, that flag is not under downward tension, so it is free to fly up (and I'll bet if you look at a firing sequence in ultra slow motion, you'll see exactly that).

Depending on how hard and fast the flag flies up and how hard the hammer falls, there's the potential for the two to intersect and lock up the gun.

I'm with Tim — who is a very experienced shooter — here...Murphy does happen, and when you tag an additional system on a firearm you've essentially added another playground for Mr. Murphy.

Michael B

Anonymous said...

I still like to hear what C.P. has to say on most any subject, but Walt (and other apologists for C.P.), did the guy even look for "first hand knowledge" of a lock failure beyond asking S&W? (I remember reading the article when it came out, but do not have it in front of me.) I mean, what kind of journalism or subject research or whatever you guys call it that you do is that? I do not remember just what the date of the C.P. article was, but I had not discovered the Smith-Wessonforum.com site then, so I do not know if the thread documenting lock failures was up then. But any author who could expect to be taken seriously could have queried for claims of such events, investigated, and reported the facts and credibility of the claimants. Or does everything have to happen to a published *gunwriter* to even ever count as documentable experience? (Guess where I read about Michael's "real deal documented event?" On the "erronet!" Any investigative researcher could get his leads on the internet and follow them up using any other method. Perhaps Charlie was restrained by a deadline, budget, editor, who knows; but that article was worthless on the face of it, even to a novice like me.

Walt, you need to get a TV show, or at least a regular spot on one of Michael's! I already appreciated your articles, but you are much better on video than you are in print, even. After watching the bit you did on snub-nosed revolvers on Down Range TV, I now actively look for your work at the newsstand. Thanks.

Anonymous said...

Charles Petty earned a surplus of credibility in my book with his logic and public defense of his unpopular choice of the .32 Magnum (331 & 332) for concealed carry of Airlite J-frames. It looks like Walt and Tam may have reached similar conclusions (Airweight 432). But he did spend some of that credibility on that "AH" article.

crebralfix said...

Michael,

Please pressure Smith and Wesson to get rid of the lock. It's ugly and apparently causes failures.

Thanks,

cREbralFIX

Anonymous said...

when S&W came out with the lock, I decided I would only buy or own used S&W guns without the lock....I have always had doubts, you just confirmed that my paradigm is the right one...

FD in AL

Anonymous said...

I agree that it would be great to see MB refuse to let this drop. Part of what's great about becoming a Big Deal in the gun world is that, in the words of Patrick O'Brian, "you do not have to eat toads; you can do as you think right." The internal locks suck -- bad idea, terribly executed by S&W -- and it would be great to hear MB saying so on DRTV.

Mas Ayoob should be the model here. Say what you will about the guy, he makes admirable use of his "clout" in the gun world by telling it like it is, in slick gunzine print, at regular intervals. Just the other day I read Ayoob's review of the Springfield EMP 9mm, and while he had a number of complimentary things to say, he made damn sure that the reader knew that his first test pistol would not function for beans. A devastating review of a supposed "self-defense" pistol. Huge cred points for Mas.

MB, too, has accrued significant cred points by putting up this post about his 329 locking up under recoil. I'd like to see him stay with it.

Anonymous said...

I *was* in the market for a 340PD for personal protection purposes. I guess I'll stick with my SP101 until this can be sorted out. I spent some time this weekend seriously studying reviews, checking pricing, researching the lock feature, and finding sporadic reports of failures. My life's too important to trust to a dodgy safe-storage-related lock.

Anonymous said...

What always concerned me with the lock is the hammerless models. On those firearms, the flag is not visible, which makes the disaster factor even higher.

Anonymous said...

I hope that this causes someone at S&W, with an ounce of brains, and the juice to change things, to get rid of the idiot lock on their revolvers.

They offer a choice of lock, or sans lock, on the M&P pistol. With the much touted CNC machines, no reason they couldn't give a choice on the revolvers. Or "bring back" a lock free model that had previously been made, like they did with the lemon squeezer.

They ARE losing sales as a result of the internal lock.

Anonymous said...

Once upon a time, I bought an ILS-encumbered S&W, a Model 638.

It was only after I had bought it that I informed myself of what I had done.

Since that day a few years ago, I have bought a Model 296 (no ILS), a pre-Model 10 M&P (no ILS), and a Model 36-1 (no ILS).

But none of those were made after the ILS was introduced, so none has an ILS.

I will not buy another S&W which has been defaced and encumbered by the "ILS."

The ILS makes the gun unsafe for use as a self-defense tool because the ILS makes the tool unreliable.

It is only a matter of time before S&W is successfully sued for putting the ILS in the gun.

The simplest and most rational thing for S&W to do would be to stop installing the lock, stop putting a hole in the guns for the lock, and to start giving their loyal customers what they want: S&W guns with no ILS.

Today I will disassemble my Model 638, degrease all the ILS parts, and reassemble them with red Loctite, effectively disabling the ILS (I hope).

~ASMS

Sarge said...

Mike,

Good of you to post this. It speaks well of your allegiance to the shooter, as opposed to 'commercial interests'.

Some time back, I wrote:

"Follow the Money...

It should come as no surprise, but most of those trying to shove these abominations down our throats- also happen to be folks who benefit commercially from increased sales of handguns, handgun training, handgun books & articles, etc. Certain contemporary gunwriters, training gurus and of course handgun accessory makers tend to gravitate toward the ‘Buy ‘em anyway!’ Camp. Having grown up reading Elmer Keith, Skeeter Skelton, Jeff Cooper & Charles Askins, I find this a little hard to swallow. These entirely credible old-school gunwriters carried handguns for more serious purposes than a trip to the range, or a canned buffalo hunt. Those boys would have called these contraptions for what they are- simply one more thing to go wrong with your life preserver."
http://sargesrollcall.blogspot.com/2007/07/note-to-us-gun-manufacturers-no-more.html

Nice to know I'm not the only voice in the darkness.

Sarge
www.thesixgunjournal.net

Anonymous said...

MB,
Has anyone talked about the lock fix on the 60-15 written by Syd on 'The Sight; www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/Model_60-15.htm
Seems like a pretty good review and a good fix for those so inclined. I do agree the damn thing is crazy but what isn't anymore. We just need to be creative in our response to insanity.

The best safety lock is prison or worse for those that tread on freedom.
DG

Anonymous said...

Does S&W know? They may discount individual customers but Michael Bane and Massad Ayoob?

Anonymous said...

Smith and Wesson does know about the lock. They are spending significant time "fixing" them and even documenting the fixes on the customer manifest. The official position seems to remain what they engineered through CEEEPEEEE.

MEC

Anonymous said...

When will the public learn that
S&W hand guns are all hunks of trash? How much does S&W pay people to lie for them.I would swap 10 Smith & Wessons of any kind for one Charter arms of any kind. Ruger makes the best guns in the world. Why don't you tell people this. You've got to know it's true.

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