Wednesday, July 27, 2011

More Norway Thoughts

Marshal Halloway produced this timeline of events in Norway:

All times PM
3:26: The bomb went off in downtown Oslo
5.27: First 911 call about the shooting on Utoya
5.30: Second 911 call about the shooting on Utoya
5.38: Oslo Politi District receives a request for assistance/backup from Buskerud Police Distrikt.
5.52: First police unit arrives to closest point on the mainland and are waiting for what is called a suitable boat.
6.03: The police are notified that a boat is under way.
6.09: A SWAT team from Oslo arrived to closest point on the mainland.
6.25: The SWAT team lands on the island.
6.27: Coward Breivik is apprehended without resistance.
The coward had over an hour to operate. Extended Gun Free Zone, what a paradise the so called modern western civilization is for a predator.

There are already questions being raised in Europe whether the Norway shooter could have killed as many people if he didn't have a semiauto rifle (a Ruger Mini-14). Based on this timeline, he could have accomplished the same number of deaths with anything, including a hammer or a machete.

And yet we have the apparently endless meme of, "well, they couldn't have done anything anyway and would have probably made things worse." Here's one of the many rehasings of the meme, this one from E. D. Kain at Forbes:
First of all, it is very unlikely in a situation like this that a vigilante will stop a shooter. In fact, it’s quite likely that more people shooting guns in such a scenario would lead to more confusion and possibly more deaths, some of which might be accidental. Police also have a harder time identifying who the shooter is and who the vigilantes are. Besides this, the killer is much more likely to kill the surprised gun owner since they are already prepared.
Let's get past his misuse of the word "vigilante" [vigilantes are civilians who punish after the fact; there is a huge difference between a vigilante and a civilian who chooses to protect him- or herself. Vigilante, of course, has a negative connotation, which is why he used the word here]. The rest of his comments are breathtaking nonsense. "Lead to more confusion?" Damn, I pretty much think a crazed killer running loose pegs the old "confusion" meter.

Secondly, let's look at an armed society at war — Israel — where armed civilians have routinely stopped terrorist attacks on civilians. Seems the Israeli police have no trouble figuring out the good guys from the bad guys...the bad guy is one lying dead on the ground with the good guys pointing guns at him.

There is also the mindset of the armed civilian. When armed civilians choose to carry guns, it is in acknowledgement that such events as Norway are possible. One of the main thrusts of training is to minimize the duration of the "startle" response and allow us to quickly respond. People like Mr. Kain, who apparently gains all his insights on firearms from Hollywood, has a vision of armed civilians trying to "quick draw" an armed terrorist, which is pretty much a guaranteed lose. This is based on their premise that anyone who wants to take responsibility for his or her own safety must be some kind of moron, so of course they're going to stand out in the open and try to Hollywood out-draw the bad guys!

I think that one of the things driving this meme some element of projection. Folks such as Mr. Kain imagines himself in that situation — frozen in place with urine running down his leg, begging some madman not to kill him — and imagines that everyone caught in that situation must respond the same way. Hmmmm...doesn't seem to happen that way in Israel. Maybe it's something in the water there.

But it doesn't even happen that way in the United States. Go back to the 2005 Tyler, TX, shootings, where a madman in body armor with an AK-47 decided to teach his ex-wife and anyone else he could find a permanent lesson. He killed his ex-wife and a bystander who tried to intervene and was looking for his next victim, their son. But instead he ran into an armed civilian, Mark Alan Wilson, a competition shooter and CCW carrier, who instead of freezing in place, begging for mercy and peeing down his leg, grabbed his handgun and engaged the shooter. Wilson scored repeated hits, but the bullets were all stopped by the flak jacket. Mark Alan Wilson died for his efforts, but police credited him with saving the life of the son and giving police time to arrive.

Mark Alan Wilson was a shooter. I believe that knew exactly what he was facing; he knew he was outgunned and I believe he knew the likely outcome. But he engaged anyway. That must seem like sheer insanity in E.D. Kain's world, where people wallow in their helplessness and wait to die, as if the bullet or knife or bludgeon were preordained by some malevolent god.

You might also note, Mr. Kain, that there are some things worse then death. Ask Colin Goddard, who's now "Living for 32" and "making a difference," because on the one day of his life when he could have made a difference, he didn't...all the speakers' fees and Oprah appearances in the world will never change that fact. I would not want to be Colin Goddard when he turns off the lights at night.

Finally, let's say that there was an armed civilian on that island, and in the ensuing melee 2 or 3 innocents were "accidentally" killed before the crazy man died or threw down his gun out of cowardice. Even in your sad sad world, Mr. Kain, would not 2 or 3 killed be better than 68 killed?

Just some thoughts...


Darrell said...

When that asshat shot up the church north of Colorado Springs, once Jeanne Assam started shooting back the perp killed himself. It was said at the time that that's often the case, once a shooter is confronted, they do themselves in rather than be taken alive.

justbill said...

With apologies to Ellen Ripley,

"Did I.Q.s drop at Forbes magazine while I was away?"

Anonymous said...

If this had happened in Finland, I wonder how many puukkos would have been found embedded in the scumbag's body?

Anonymous said...

Check out the "prison" this guy is going to live his life out in. I've stayed in crappier motels. I suspect that Norway is getting what it deserves. Sad as that is.

You have to click on the photos from Yahoo news today...

Dave Sohm said...

I'd be willing to bet that the last thought going through the mind of anything of the victims was not, "Boy, I'm sure glad that I don't have a gun. . . . . ."

Windy Wilson said...

The heros of Telemark would be disgusted by their country today.

Rob Drummond said...

I always get sick when I see stories like this. Not only for the senseless death but of the senseless reporting.

I live in NH where crime is very low, some say it's because the population is under 2 million and there are only a few big cities. But those of us who live in the country know why it's because the armed citizen is alive, well, & prepared & I count myself among those.

We have a few shootings up here but very few break in's or armed assaults. The criminals just don't know who has a gun here. Some towns up here have part time police & the response time is sometimes 1/2 hour or better especially out in rural areas. If somethings happens it will be all over before the cops show up so it is up to the civilian to deal with it. So many households are armed just for that reason.

Can you imagine if only one person had a gun on that island what might have happened?
Rob Drummond
Hillsboro, NH

Anonymous said...

I live in the next county over from the previous poster and echo his comments.
Here in Laconia over the past couple years we have started to see "Home invasion" robberies, every single one of them has been drug related.
Recently we have had a string of night time burglaries, in each case the items taken were visible from a window.
The thieves are going for quick in, quick out, no confrontation, because they want to steal, not get shot.
Tom B.

Anonymous said...

Congratulations to liberal-socialist-lefty education initiatives. It only took 50 years to produce a generation of pacifists who allowed themselves to be slaughtered without throwing a single rock. Good job, guys. The message is: put a liberal in charge of eductaion and in 50 years you get a population of sheep to which you can do anything you wish.. (I keep laughing to myself about the possibility that instead of this island, the psycho nutcase had chosen the island on which the English schoolboys were marooned in LORD OF THE FLIES. They would have laughingly cut his head off, boiled it for soup and hung the skull on a pole in front of the worship tent. Such, such were the joys!

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Jkwas said...

The real lesson from the Forbes blogger is that people who know nothing about guns completely mis understand people that do.
Both types of people, gun-culture and nongun-culture operate on two different planes of existence.
I don't know sometimes that getting those two planes to intersect is possible without a life altering experience. Even that may not work.

Will said...

it seems that a surprising number of those that ccw would not get involved in stopping an active mass shooter, if it was possible to exit the scene without engaging him. Perhaps you could look into this? A friend with extensive Gunsite and FrontSight training sounds like a typical anti-gun, big govt liberal/journalist when the subject is brought up. The attitude in general appears to be: "If I can safely beat feet, the devil take the hindmost".

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