Wednesday, October 24, 2007

Couple of Interesting Data Points

This from over at HK Pro:
UPDATE: 10.23.2007: HKPRO.COM has obtained a copy of the BKA document approving the MR223 and MR308 rifles for civilian consumption inside Germany. What is important to remember is that this document is specific to Germany only, and lists low capacity magazines, presumably for compliance with German law. Also listed are several barrel lengths that are common with the HK416 and HK417.

As far as U.S. consumers are concerned, they should not make certain assumptions. First of all, these rifles as submitted have NOT been submitted to American regulatory authorities as of this writing, and the specifications are subject to change at any time.
That means the HK 416/417 may eventually find their way into American consumer hands. In truth, I haven't shot one; I've handled Bill Murphy's, and he's really high on it.

There is no doubt that the HK gas pistons guns would quickly become big sellers (no doubt at a tidy price tag, too). Unless HK moves relatively quickly — not something the German company is noted for — they may miss the curve. I've shot the LWRC and the Sig 556 piston guns; DS Arms Gas Trap and Bushmaster's gas piston guns are coming into the market. POF is pretty well established, and even the Masada is looking for like a real gun that vaporware. Should be interesting!

Another data point — Some of the issues on the Ruger SR9 trigger seem to stem from people dry-firing the gun and/or weighing the trigger pull with the magazine out (which the Ruger manual specifically says is a no-no). Walt Rauch bought this to my attention last night; he'd emailed Ruger and asked about the trigger, and they responded by asking how he'd measured the trigger. When Walt inserted the magazine and reweighed the trigger, it broke at 6.25 pounds.

I just got an email routed from a dealer talking about the very same thing, so I thought I should post this. The SR9 should ONLY be dry-fired — and that includes weighing the trigger pull — with the magazine inserted! Thanks to Walt for checking with Ruger and clearing that up!


Anonymous said...


What about the Robinson Arms XCR?
I find it much nicer to shoot than my M4 and S&W M&P15. Outclasses the old Sig 550.

Ratcatcher 55

Jerry The Geek said...

"POF is pretty well established, and even the Masada is looking for like a real gun that vaporware.

Not being critical, just asking for clarification.

Did you mean:
" ... even the Masada is looking more like a real gun than vaporware."?

Anonymous said...

What peculiar idiosyncracy could there be in a design of a handgun that requires that you insert the magazine in order to dry fire it, otherwise the trigger feels raspy?
Oh and per your prior posting, you have to send it off to a "smith" to make it work right? What other brand "offered" that requirement. (Hint: They're almost out of business now.)
An inquiring mind.

Michael Bane said...

J-T-G...English is not my first language...what you said.

Anonymous...I am pissy about guns I campaign, ie, that I shoot in competition. So, yes, I shoot it in competition, it goes to a gunsmith first. Every gun I shoot in competition has been to a 'smith, with the exception of a Glock I borrowed from Chris Edwards at a GSSF match a few years back. If I'd'a kept it — which would have pissed Chris off — I'd have sent it to a gunsmith. Even guns that I really like — the S&W 1911, the Sig Sauer 225/6 — get a trip for minor adjustment.

Guns have idiosyncracies...heck, there's even a very popular gun that requires you to pull the trigger to disassemble it! Putting a magazine in to dry fire the gun doesn't strike me as a big deal. I use dummy mags or dummy cartridges when I fire guns to get the weight more or less right. Dry-firing is not the Real Thing, so adding a step like inserting the mag hardly seems like a make-or-break...sort of like worrying about the paint job on a cruise missile.

My point is that guns are subjective...if the dry-fire thing bothers you, buy a different gun. I like gunsmiths and I know exactly what I want in a gun, so I have my working guns dinked. If you don't want your guns tuned, don't get them tuned. They still work just fine.

RE: the XCR...I've never shot one, so my bad! I'll see if I can run one down...

Michael B

Anonymous said...

Michael, Thanks for the response. As a manufacturing engineer, I am VERY picky about what I produce. Well, actually my processes. In this day and age of manufacturing technology and process control techniques, I can offer first-hand that it is possible to produce a gun right out of the box, with the attributes that YOU and everyone else wants. Even the "glass-rod-breaking" trigger feel. I offer Kimber as a prime example. There are others, of course, but look what happened to the 1911 market. It started out as the fodder for 'smiths and ended as a box-stock shooters market, by and large. By the way, Kimbers are also affordable. That's because qualit is built-in.
My first note was a snotty attempt to convince you to not be so forgiving. It is also directed at an industry and manufacturer that is capable of better. If manufacturers (and designers) actually listen to and understand the expectations of their customers, THEN build it; vs. designing anf building it, THEN having it receive glowing, or often disappointing reviews; we will have come a long way.
Thanks again for being our voice.

DonWorsham said...

Hey anonymous (but which one?)..."My first note was a snotty attempt to convince you to not be so forgiving."

If you're going to be "snotty" why not include you name so can reply to your post.

Anonymous said...

Sorry for the anonymity. I don't think that I need to explain my self effacing label to my comment, but in the shadow of a well respected guy like Michael, well I think that you get it. It's kind of like Mike's "pissy" label.
Anyhow, if it's fit for private e-mail, it should be fit for this site. So, what say you?
Annonymous "8:57 pm" and "8:04 AM".

Clay Cooper said...

911 …---…
Last night, a friend told me that Wal-Mart had computers with Windows XP and would be nice to have two spares for the business my Wife and I own. So I swooped over to Wal-Mart and they were sold out. So I went over to the Sporting goods section and their stood a Father with his 9 year old son looking at rifles. The young man was wide eyed with excitement just as if it was Christmas morning and the father had a very sad look on his face and sick to his stomach. Youth season for deer is Nov 3-4, there was no youth rifles in stock and if there was the father couldn’t afford one. That was sad enough for me until the father turned to the wide eyed boy and said, I’ m sorry son, looked the other way and just wanted to fall to his knees and cry. What has happened to us in the Sportsmen community??? I remember my father going all out to make sure I had what I needed and the training to go with it. He had the recourses at hand. He was a member of a Military Rod and Gun Club and Member of the Air Force Shooting Team that was able to get things at a reduced price and knew places like Jensens Gun Shop in Tucson Az to customize his 03-A3 for me. I’ve been really pissed off and just outright angry for years at the manufacturers. It wasn’t until last night realized just how much I am and why I am so pissed when that young man of 9 wanted so badly to go deer hunting. Last week I ordered a Ramline Cadet Youth stock for my brand new Remington 700 CDL 25-06 so my Grandson can go out on this coming youth hunt. I have the resources to do so thanks to my Father. When I was in the Air Force, I was blessed with a great Father and passed it on to volunteer to local Youth Hunter Safety and Boy Scout programs. At Dysart High School west of Phoenix Az 1995, I was asked to teach the ROTC rifle team. They had the worst equipment and they still finished second place in their Regional Championship and I was told by Army Sgt Charles Hydman in charge of the program they wouldn’t have done it without me. The truth of the matter is, it was a generational thing like saying it’s in the genetics. As my Father taught me as I passed onto them as you the Sportsman should do the same. Follow what I’m saying. What do we do? Every year there is less and less youths coming into the field to go hunting and fishing.

I hope and pray someone will follow suit!

Anonymous said...

“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles.”
-Col. Jeff Cooper, from The Art of the Rifle

Anonymous said...

FWIW The R-9 I tried out a ChimoGuns last night was rougher than sand paper.(with the magazine inserted) Makes a HighPoint feel like a Registered Magnum by comparison.
THAT was the only downer about the gun (Other than it NOT being a .45ACP or 10mm) I hope they can get the triggers squared away, as I recall the P-85s were pretty rough when they first hit the market.
Good on Ruger for not announcing 2 years before they hit dealers shelves.

Hazcat said...


You want to know why there are less hunters? Let me tell ya why.

I live in Florida and have been trying for the last 6 to 8 months to get into hunting with (or really for) my son (14 years old).

I am not a hunter but I am a reasonably intelligent guy so the first thing I do is start researching the subject.

Well Florida's hunting laws are some thing like this...

"General gun season is from November 17 to Jan 30. During this time you can hunt on eyed albino deer if it is the third Monday following the fourth full moon in a month with thee "rs" in it and the deer was facing SSW and the shot could not be heard by any other animal and you are not within 50 miles of a road."

"Each Wildlife Management Area (WMA is same as public land) has it's own set of rules and you need to follow these rules instead of the those posted above. Each WMA has a tag system, special hunt dates, reserved hunt dates and dates that correspond with the spawning of the Great DoDo bird. We will not really tell you what these dates are or when they are but you need to know them to hunt. Also ....."

So then I went to some hunters to try to get this explained to me. EVERYONE of them said "read the laws, I know what they are where I hunt you need to figure them out." In other words "I'm not gonna help cause then you would be hunting in MY area".

So what does that leave? Well that leave the BLOC (Bring Lots Of Cash) Outfitters, who will set you up to shoot a deer from a stand over a feeder the deer have damn near been trained to come to. And this will only cost you $1,500.00 per deer plus trophy fees, meat handling fees and gratuities for 50 lbs of meat.

And THAT'S why there are less hunters every year. Unless you have it handed down to you it is next to impossible to "get into".